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	<title>Comments on: Problems Scaling Ruby to Complex Systems</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html</link>
	<description>Analysis of Trends in Technology, Business, Society</description>
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		<title>By: &#187; Choosing a web framework: Python, Django vs. Ruby on Rails - Embracing Chaos</title>
		<link>http://www.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html/comment-page-1#comment-2024</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; Choosing a web framework: Python, Django vs. Ruby on Rails - Embracing Chaos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 May 2010 02:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wp.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html#comment-2024</guid>
		<description>[...] blogged about my experiences with rails and in particular my conclusion that at the time Rails was not ready for large, complex projects, partly because of a lack of good tools, libraries and sensible error messages, all of which can be [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] blogged about my experiences with rails and in particular my conclusion that at the time Rails was not ready for large, complex projects, partly because of a lack of good tools, libraries and sensible error messages, all of which can be [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html/comment-page-1#comment-384</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 10:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wp.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html#comment-384</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Sorry, as a follow-up to my last comment, the hosting servers I&#039;m referring to here were for the management interface only - those 9 servers did not actually handle the hosted sites.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, as a follow-up to my last comment, the hosting servers I&#39;m referring to here were for the management interface only &#8211; those 9 servers did not actually handle the hosted sites.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html/comment-page-1#comment-383</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 10:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wp.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html#comment-383</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Good post - I&#039;ve encountered the exact same problems you&#039;re having. The &quot;add more servers&quot; answer is really stupid, too, given the number and cost of servers involved. I&#039;ve worked on a large on-line payment platform written in Java which used exactly ONE server to cater to over 60 countries, but a hosting company I&#039;ve worked for requires 9 servers running RoR to handle Canada and the USA.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;As for the question of tools - there will really never be an instance where an IDE can really help you. Part of the problem is that so many libraries, tools and framework rely on &quot;method_missing&quot; to handle functionality. It would be challenging if not down-right impossible for an IDE to fathom what would be an acceptable &quot;method&quot; name under these circumstances (as a point of reference, ActiveRecord makes heavy use of &quot;method_missing&quot;)&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post &#8211; I&#39;ve encountered the exact same problems you&#39;re having. The &quot;add more servers&quot; answer is really stupid, too, given the number and cost of servers involved. I&#39;ve worked on a large on-line payment platform written in Java which used exactly ONE server to cater to over 60 countries, but a hosting company I&#39;ve worked for requires 9 servers running RoR to handle Canada and the USA.</p>
<p>As for the question of tools &#8211; there will really never be an instance where an IDE can really help you. Part of the problem is that so many libraries, tools and framework rely on &quot;method_missing&quot; to handle functionality. It would be challenging if not down-right impossible for an IDE to fathom what would be an acceptable &quot;method&quot; name under these circumstances (as a point of reference, ActiveRecord makes heavy use of &quot;method_missing&quot;)</p>
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		<title>By: big</title>
		<link>http://www.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html/comment-page-1#comment-382</link>
		<dc:creator>big</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:12:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wp.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html#comment-382</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I found another post which is worth looking at that discusses scaling the logger facility, much like twitter does it:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dotrb.com/2007/8/11/scaling-rails-with-sysloglogger&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.dotrb.com/2007/8/11/scaling-rails-with-sysloglogger&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found another post which is worth looking at that discusses scaling the logger facility, much like twitter does it:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.dotrb.com/2007/8/11/scaling-rails-with-sysloglogger" rel="nofollow">http://www.dotrb.com/2007/8/11/scaling-rails-with-sysloglogger</a></p>
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		<title>By: Owen</title>
		<link>http://www.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html/comment-page-1#comment-381</link>
		<dc:creator>Owen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wp.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html#comment-381</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I have to point out to most RUBY fanatics that even rubyonrails.com, 37signals.com, bascamp.com and backpack.com all run PHP on their frontpage just to be able to handle the bandwidth!! This has been KNOWN for a long time and the RUBY guys still don&#039;t move off PHP. Of course excuses are made and no one believes it, but it is a huge issue. It is a known fact that RUBY does not scale and 43things required 4 times the number of machines to get the job done and their migration was a nightmare.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to point out to most RUBY fanatics that even rubyonrails.com, 37signals.com, bascamp.com and backpack.com all run PHP on their frontpage just to be able to handle the bandwidth!! This has been KNOWN for a long time and the RUBY guys still don&#39;t move off PHP. Of course excuses are made and no one believes it, but it is a huge issue. It is a known fact that RUBY does not scale and 43things required 4 times the number of machines to get the job done and their migration was a nightmare.</p>
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		<title>By: leodirac</title>
		<link>http://www.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html/comment-page-1#comment-380</link>
		<dc:creator>leodirac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wp.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html#comment-380</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Back in 1996 I spent a long time working on a pretty large (tens of thousands of lines of code) perl system for generating dynamic web sites.  It predated JSP, ASP and all that, but had much of the same functionality -- sessions, users, security, database access -- all built by hand.  Yes, it is possible.  But would anybody sane embark on such a project in perl today? I doubt it.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Whether the language is compiled or interpreted I think is really immaterial.  The issue is how much your IDE can help you.  If your language is statically typed, your IDE should be able to do a lot in terms of figuring out what will work at coding time.  If your language is dynamically typed, then it&#039;s not so obvious.  But depending on how you write your code, your IDE might still be able to help a fair bit.  If your framework creates many of the methods you use on the fly by doing string manipulation on the method name, like Rails does, your IDE is hosed.  It won&#039;t be able to help at all.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;A side effect of this coding style is that even basic syntax errors won&#039;t get caught at compile time -- in fact at run time the stack traces typically include 5-10 lines after your bad line of code where Rails is trying to figure out what you might have meant.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;All this points to a system where developer productivity is fabulously high when you get started, but is severely limited by the tools once things start to go wrong as they inevitably will with a big project.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;You&#039;re right -- the language isn&#039;t the limitation.  It&#039;s the coding style that is adopted/encouraged by the framework.  It&#039;s totally possible to write maintainable code in perl or smalltalk or ruby.  I&#039;ve never worked with smalltalk, but I know almost nobody who writes maintainable perl, and I&#039;m having my doubts about ruby especially on rails.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back in 1996 I spent a long time working on a pretty large (tens of thousands of lines of code) perl system for generating dynamic web sites.  It predated JSP, ASP and all that, but had much of the same functionality &#8212; sessions, users, security, database access &#8212; all built by hand.  Yes, it is possible.  But would anybody sane embark on such a project in perl today? I doubt it.</p>
<p>Whether the language is compiled or interpreted I think is really immaterial.  The issue is how much your IDE can help you.  If your language is statically typed, your IDE should be able to do a lot in terms of figuring out what will work at coding time.  If your language is dynamically typed, then it&#39;s not so obvious.  But depending on how you write your code, your IDE might still be able to help a fair bit.  If your framework creates many of the methods you use on the fly by doing string manipulation on the method name, like Rails does, your IDE is hosed.  It won&#39;t be able to help at all.  </p>
<p>A side effect of this coding style is that even basic syntax errors won&#39;t get caught at compile time &#8212; in fact at run time the stack traces typically include 5-10 lines after your bad line of code where Rails is trying to figure out what you might have meant.</p>
<p>All this points to a system where developer productivity is fabulously high when you get started, but is severely limited by the tools once things start to go wrong as they inevitably will with a big project.</p>
<p>You&#39;re right &#8212; the language isn&#39;t the limitation.  It&#39;s the coding style that is adopted/encouraged by the framework.  It&#39;s totally possible to write maintainable code in perl or smalltalk or ruby.  I&#39;ve never worked with smalltalk, but I know almost nobody who writes maintainable perl, and I&#39;m having my doubts about ruby especially on rails.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Dufair</title>
		<link>http://www.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html/comment-page-1#comment-379</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Dufair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:00:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wp.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html#comment-379</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;d be reluctant to group uncompiled or interpreted languages all in one bucket and suggest they don&#039;t scale.  Perhaps you aren&#039;t saying that, but it was the impression I got.  We have a large (10s of thousands of objects, dozens of servers, 10s of thousands of users) system in use at Purdue University, where I work, and it&#039;s done in Smalltalk.  It scales very well, both in the traditional sense and in the sense of complexity.  I am under the impression Ruby is pure OO, like Smalltalk, so perhaps it&#039;s an architecture thing rather than a language thing.&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;d be reluctant to group uncompiled or interpreted languages all in one bucket and suggest they don&#39;t scale.  Perhaps you aren&#39;t saying that, but it was the impression I got.  We have a large (10s of thousands of objects, dozens of servers, 10s of thousands of users) system in use at Purdue University, where I work, and it&#39;s done in Smalltalk.  It scales very well, both in the traditional sense and in the sense of complexity.  I am under the impression Ruby is pure OO, like Smalltalk, so perhaps it&#39;s an architecture thing rather than a language thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html/comment-page-1#comment-378</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Mar 2007 14:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wp.embracingchaos.com/2007/03/scaling_ruby_to.html#comment-378</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;What was the useless error that you got?&lt;/p&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What was the useless error that you got?</p>
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